Learning to Give, Curriculum Division of The LEAGUE

The LEAGUE


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Charles Gibbs
"Generous Spirit" Interviews

Background Information:

The Rev. Canon Charles Gibbs serves as Executive Director of United Religions Initiative (www.uri.org). The purpose of this global grassroots network is to promote enduring, daily, interfaith cooperation to end religiously-motivated violence and to create cultures of peace, justice and healing for the Earth and all living beings.

Interviewer: Poet and philosopher Mark Nepo has taught in the fields of poetry and spirituality for over thirty years.  The author of ten books, his most recent title is The Exquisite Risk (Harmony Books, NY, 2005).  Mark server as a Program Officer at the Fetzer Institute.

October 21, 2003


Nepo: What does the phrase “generosity of spirit” conjure up for you? What kinds of qualities?
Gibbs:

It takes me immediately to a question of how you live your life, to the foundational stance you take in relation to being alive. For me, it’s grounded in the notion of gift. From a Christian standpoint, this is a belief that everything we are and everything we have is a gift. We’re not owners, but caretakers for the period we’re blessed to be alive. Our life is richest and fullest when we acknowledge our giftedness, and fulfill our responsibility to make the best use of the gifts we’ve been given and to share them so that others might be gifted by the gifts we’ve received and the gift we, hopefully, become as we grow in this life.

This is the foundation of any notion of generosity of spirit.

I have received many extraordinary gifts in my life—some of them very hard to unwrap, some of them I’ve struggled mightily to claim. There’s a part of growing and becoming responsible that has to do with claiming certain challenging gifts. I can remember different times in my life when I’ve been able to look at myself and see this sort of petulant little kid saying, “I don’t want that gift.”

There are a lot of challenges in living from an authentic sense of giftedness, from as authentic a stance of generosity of spirit as you can, in a way that isn’t aimed primarily at making myself more or better in a prideful way. One part of the gift I’ve received is who I am, and one of the ways to honor that gift is to be as fully who I am as possible and to use the gifts I’ve been given as fully as possible. I ought to structure my life in a way that allows me to be as fully who I am as I am able, in a way that shares my gifts with the people I know and love the best and also, in a larger sense, with the world.

Nepo:

We were talking earlier about Lynne Twist’s notion that money needs to flow which really resonates with me.  Do you think there a similar flow to our caring? Is there a similar kind of stream of our generosity that has to stay flowing in order for it to be vital?

Gibbs: Yes, and when you ask that question, the word that immediately comes to my mind is sacrifice. If you are in a relationship with another person—whether it’s a love relationship that leads to marriage, or a love relationship that has you parenting someone or being the child of someone, or a friendship—those relationships always give to you, ideally in a positive way. But there are times when what I might pick, left completely to my own devices, would look different from what I would pick taking someone else’s needs into consideration. So, part of that flow of generosity of spirit, I believe, involves times when you sacrifice your own interests in favor of serving another; and recognize that there is a higher value in that service that will also be a gift to you. It’s a lot easier to do that in a way that feels gracious and free if I feel that kind of a flow.
Nepo: What kinds of things do you think prevent generosity of spirit?
Gibbs: Fear is a big one. I suppose fear that there’s not enough. Fear that the universe is somehow hostile and I need to be heavily defended. There’s no question that there is hostility out there, but do you choose to live from an anxious, fearful stance?  If you do, it blocks generosity of spirit.
Nepo: Both giving and receiving.
Gibbs: Yes.
Nepo: This touches on what we were talking about last night about human beings being innately good or innately evil or violent or struggling. Is there, or has there been, a significant model for you or teacher of generosity?
Gibbs: There are many. One would be my brother, Eric. He had Down Syndrome. He was called a “Mongoloid idiot” and diagnosed with a mental age of four. The doctor said he ought to be put in an institution because he would never be anything but heartache to my mother and our family. My mother didn’t listen to the doctor and kept Eric at home just like her other children. Eric grew into a human being who modeled—he was far from perfect, don’t get me wrong—but he modeled a generosity of spirit that was one of the most remarkable things about him. He was so clear about giving in his life—unabashedly giving of who he was. He transformed so many lives, including mine, by living with a generosity of spirit that said we’re all sisters and brothers together, and our life is about connecting—in a rich, in-depth way—with each other so that we look beyond the illusion of other and experience together our common humanity.
Nepo: Can you remember a time or when you realized this quality about your brother, and all of a sudden went, “Oh, whoa?”
Gibbs:

Yes, sadly, a lot of it came back as I was grieving and reflecting after he died very suddenly. I think what made it so dramatically clear was his funeral. The church was absolutely packed; you couldn’t have fit another person into the church. As people filed out after the service, they stopped, and person after person said, “You know, knowing your brother changed my life.” The stories they would tell would be about, they would tell this delicately, but there was a clear message underneath that their first response at seeing this kid—he was Mongoloid, he had oriental eyes on a Caucasian kid, he spoke very differently, he acted differently—was to see him as an object, but he would not settle for that. He would insist that they engage him as a person and, as they engaged him as a person, they not only had to confront whatever it was in them that had passed this quick judgment on him and made him an object, but they also found themselves enriched by someone who, in a very gentle way just by being who he was, challenged them to see themselves and the world in a different way, to ask new questions about what it means to be alive, what it means to be human, what it means to accomplish things.

Seeing that reflected back from other people, and as I looked more and more at myself and asked where some of the beliefs and values I had [acquired] came from, I realized that so much of what I took to be true about life came from having had Eric as a brother. I was challenged by who he was, by who I was, by the way other people responded to him and by the way he responded to other people.

There’s one experience that stands out for me as the symbolic representation of all that. At that time in our church, you had to be confirmed to receive communion—and confirmation was considered to be something where you had to intellectually appropriate the faith. At 13 or 14 years old, you had to go through fairly rigorous study, memorize creeds and all this different stuff. And you had to do that to be fed with the rest of the community at the Eucharist on Sunday morning.

Well, my brother clearly did not have the intellectual capacity to do what normal people did to be confirmed. Our priest, who’s a dear friend to this day, talks about the dirty looks my brother would give him on Sunday at the altar when he would not give Eric communion. “Finally” our priest said, “I just couldn’t take it anymore.” So he changed his own understanding of what was required, came up with a confirmation preparation for my brother, and my brother was confirmed.

My family helped found a new church, and I was one of the first acolytes, so my brother wanted to be an acolyte. Well, here it was again. Now, how could he be an acolyte? But having banged down the door to get confirmed, banging down the door to be an acolyte was pretty easy for him. So, as it turned out, he became the longest standing acolyte the church had.

One thing he would do at the midnight service on Christmas Eve—a beautiful, beautiful ritual—this big procession would come in. My brother would be the one carrying the baby Jesus on a pillow to place him in the manger. And I realized that’s what Eric’s life was all about—he was carrying that spirit, that self-giving spirit that is always at service, into the world. He exemplified that as much as anyone I have ever known and more than most people. When I think about that and see him also singing one of the Christmas hymns that has the refrain, Glo-o-o-ria, his mouth would be open wide and his face just beaming with light, singing. When I think of him and think of those qualities about him, I’m immediately drawn into those experiences.

Nepo: That’s beautiful. What part of you, do you think, or how would you name the part of you, that has awakened in you?
Gibbs: I would say that it is on a deep level of recognition of several things. One is that so much of the way we live in the world, view the world, is conditional. It’s an arbitrary construct. That’s not necessarily a negative thing but it simply is so. My brother helped me be open to the possibility that there were many ways to be present in the world, many ways to see the world, and they don’t have to be mutually exclusive.
Nepo: So, given the work that you’re in, what unconsciously predisposed you to a greater openness?
Gibbs: When people ask me how I came to do the work I’m doing—if I feel that the question is not coming from a “first I did this and then I did this" perspective, but is a deeper kind of question. I say there are two things in my life that led to this work. One was having Eric as my brother, and because that made me recognize that we really are—no matter how different we may seem—sisters and brothers, too. That is a big part of our curriculum, that [the purpose in] this life is to attempt to realize that connection with each other and evoke it in each other. And the second is that, for me, the spiritual dimension of life has always been the most important, the most compelling.
Nepo: So let’s move to the United Religions Initiative . . . let’s explore this a bit. I wonder how you would speak about it—the nature of your work feels very much about generosity of spirit. Yet, I’m not sure how I’m going to articulate that, so I want to explore it together. Or maybe you don’t agree or name or see it differently.
Gibbs: Well, all of that notwithstanding, I have no trouble accepting that there is, about you or me, an ethos of the generosity of spirit that is profound. So, why is that? To go back to what I said earlier about generosity of spirit, which has to do with giftedness.  I think we are able to appropriate and live in a generosity of spirit to the extent that we can appropriate a sense of giftedness. United Religions Initiative's (URI) work and how we bring people together always begins by helping people to find themselves as respected, as honored, as people, who bring tremendous gifts to our common endeavor. To do that in a way that causes people not only to experience that in themselves, but to experience it in another person. So our work builds from the foundation of a really deep appreciation for each other. I think that is another way to talk about generosity of spirit. If you have a deep appreciation for who you are and where you come from and for the same in other people, it opens the pathways that evoke and allow a generosity that is really transformative.
Nepo: I ran across the word “appreciate” that comes from the Greek, which means “to move toward what is precious.”
Gibbs: That’s nice. When you feel that, as opposed to feeling inadequacy or feeling scarcity—we don’t have enough, we don’t know enough, we’re not giving enough. If instead, you’re in touch with what Matthew Fox, among others, have talked about as original blessing . . . if you’re swimming in those waters, that’s the flow.
Nepo: In your experience with different cultures and religious traditions, does this concept or this phrasing of “generosity of spirit,” in your opinion, translate well?  Are there other corollaries or striking things that you have come across that might speak to this differently?
Gibbs: What I want to do, rather than answer that question, is bring a bunch of friends into the room and have a conversation about that. What are the experiences and understandings people of all different traditions all over the world have that correspond to what I understand by generosity of spirit? Is that the vocabulary that is most natural to everyone? I’m sure it’s not. What are the words that would express this idea for different people in different faiths and different cultures and in different parts of the world would be an interesting thing. But, words aside, I don’t think that the concept and the practice would be strange to most of the people I know.
Nepo: Through your experiences with people from other traditions, do any individuals or experiences stand out as touching moments of generosity that you could share?
Gibbs:

Sure. I think of a meeting I had some years ago just outside of Delhi, with a Sikh leader named Baba Virsa Singh. From one perspective you would say is an illiterate peasant, but from another perspective you would say is an avatar of God, and through another perspective, you would say he is a revered spiritual leader, and on and on. His followers talk about the miraculous healings that have occurred because of his presence. They talk about how his walking over environmentally ravaged land has healed the land, increasing their productivity many times over. They talk about him restoring life to people who have died. These are not things that, for Christians, happened when Jesus was alive and are written about in the Bible, but, for the most part, haven’t happened outside the Bible.

Baba Virsa Singh has an ashram outside of New Delhi called Gobin Sadan, which means House of God. Many of the people who stay there are among the most disenfranchised folks in India. They are welcomed and Gobin Sadan becomes their community. They are full stakeholders. The crops that grow there are unimaginably lush. There are three places in the ashram where, 24 hours a day, there is a sacred fire burning and the sacred scriptures are chanted. Everyone takes a turn.

It doesn’t matter if you are the most advanced religious practitioner or someone who has just come in from the poorest slum somewhere, you share in this ongoing tribute to the generosity of God’s spirit that undergirds the universe, in this ongoing flow of praise for the goodness of what is.

They also have a langar, a communal kitchen, which is a common Sikh practice where anyone who is hungry can come eat. Everyone is equal. Everyone sits on straw mats on the floor. The Prime Minister of India might be sitting next to the poorest person from a slum in Calcutta, and they are sitting next to each other as human beings, sharing a free meal. There is no stigma attached to any of it, and there is no exaltation of anyone. To me, that is another manifestation of a generosity of spirit. The food is provided free of charge and the work is always done by volunteers. Also, there is this generosity of spirit that says everyone is welcome, everyone is equal.

When I visited Gobin Sadan, I was hosted by a woman from Connecticut who had met Baba Virsa Singh when he toured the U.S. She had recognized immediately that he was the spiritual leader she was to follow. So she left everything and followed him—like the New Testament stories about the disciples leaving everything to follow Jesus.

Nepo: To follow him.
Gibbs:

To follow him. Delightful woman. She took me through the little cubicle she lived in. She had books . . . I noticed one was a book by a friend of mine called, Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time. I said, “Oh, that’s a great book. Have you read it?” “No, I haven’t, I’m looking forward to it.” I said, “Well, the person who wrote it is a friend of mine. It’s a wonderful book.” She said, “Come, I want to show you something.”

So she took me down a dirt path through lush green fields, around the corner, along a stone wall and through a gate, into a big garden. I looked across the garden. There was a statue of Jesus, standing with his arms open wide as if to embrace the world. I thought, well, that’s interesting. There’s Jesus in a Sikh ashram.

She said, “That’s where Jesus appeared to Babaji. I thought, “That’s interesting.”

She said, “They had a wonderful time together. They had such a wonderful time together that Babaji asked us to have this statue made and, to this day, Christmas is one of our best celebrations on the ashram. And you know what? They still get together from time to time.”

Nepo: That’s amazing.
Gibbs:

Driving back, I thought, “Boy, this is interesting. This means that Christians don’t own Jesus.” After an initial shock, there is a generosity of spirit in that.

But before I left the ashram, I was able to spend some time with Babaji. He spoke to me through an interpreter. He mostly spoke and I mostly listened. Near the end of out time together, he said, “I want you to know that God is absolute, pure love and all God wants from all of God’s creatures is that they come to God for love. That’s it. And you know what, if all God’s creatures did that, if they all came to God for love, all at the same moment and they all took all the love they could ever want or need in that one moment, it would be as if a tiny bird took a sip of the ocean.” To me that is the foundational reality that calls us to a generosity of spirit and Babaji is someone who not only teaches that but clearly lives it in his life.

Nepo: That’s a beautiful story. What an image.
Gibbs:

So that’s certainly one example. Another very different example was a man in Africa, in Nairobi, Kenya. He was the outgoing head of the All-Africa Council of Churches. And he listened very kindly and patiently to this white guy from America bringing yet another good idea to Africa to make the world a better place. You know that he had experienced many of those in his 20-plus years in this office and had seen far more damage than help come from them. He listened very carefully and when I finished, he said, “Well, before I would know whether I could support this initiative or not, I would need to know how it would affect three kinds of people I’ve come to know in my work here.

“The first kind of people are those who are born to die. They come into this life and the material facts of their existence are so fragile that they take a few breaths . . . then they pass from this existence. What would this initiative of yours do for those people who are born to die?

“The second group is those who are born to survive and it’s an enormous group in terms of the human population. They will spend their lives struggling each day just to keep the physical spark of life alive. What would this initiative do for those people who are born to survive?

 “And then the third group of people is those people who are born to live. They don’t have to worry about their material existence. They don’t have to worry about food each day to survive. They have abundance beyond abundance. What would this initiative do for that group of people?”

In a very different way for me, those tough questions really cut to the core of generosity of spirit because they are asking that we live our lives not only for ourselves and whatever good idea we have at the moment but live our lives in an intentional way that is mindful of the fullness of human experience on this planet and recognize that we have a shared responsibility for all our sisters and brothers. That’s not to say that we can solve every problem that exists or that we have to abandon this project or that because it doesn’t do that. It is to say we’re here to have a mutual responsibility, a mutual accountability, and that what we have been given needs to flow in a way that is mindful of the fullness of human experience.

Nepo: That’s really amazing. It also points out, at one deep level, the kind of truth-telling or truth-questioning that leads us to embody that generosity, to have our inner and our outer selves match and to connect with others in the world. Is that a deep form of generosity?
Gibbs: The way that he did that at first was by listening very patiently. As I look back on it, it would have been very easy for him to say, “I’ve heard this story. Thank you, I’m too busy, I don’t have time for this right now.” Or, “Come back to me when you’ve been doing this for three years and have a little experience to talk from.” But he listened respectfully and then he simply said—for me to know whether or not I could support this—these are the things I would need to know. And what he would need to know created an opening into a much deeper reflection on what this initiative might be.
Nepo: If we were to try to educate or cultivate generosity of spirit in people, especially young people, what might that education look like? What ways of interacting or searching or inquiry might best serve that? From what you’ve already said, the first thing is to help people have an understanding of an abundant view of life, the giftedness of life versus a scarcity sense of life.
Gibbs: If I could step back from that for just a moment. The two things that come to my mind are guiding values and confidence. To start with, in humility—wanting to offer wisdom, understanding, practice, and to learn in the process. I think you have to have confidence in the wisdom you hold and confidence that there is something of value to be shared, and humility based on knowing how little you know and how much other people have to share. It’s easy to get trapped in one or the other of those. From my experience, there’s a real art form to balancing those in an appropriate way—having the confidence to go out and put something forward, and the humility to stand back and listen. Then the abundance part, I think the important grounding is in a sense of blessedness rather than abundance.
Nepo:

That’s a beautiful distinction.

Gibbs:

Because abundance can immediately translate into material abundance. It is possible for the poorest person to feel blessedness, but there’s not much you can identify as abundance on a material plane in that person’s life. So to help people feel their own blessedness and to feel that they are a blessing. As I say that, I realize that in that there are the same two dimensions, confidence and humility. To feel that I am a blessing is to feel some confidence in myself. To feel my own blessedness, to realize that this is coming to me as a gift, is to feel humility. But to help people find that experience of blessedness in themselves and in finding it in themselves to find it in others also, those two things I think go together importantly.

I go back again and again and again, as a Christian, to Jesus’ summary of the law, when he was asked, “What do I need to do to inherit eternal life?” Drawing on his Jewishness, Jesus said, “You must love God with the fullness of your being and love your neighbor as you love yourself.”

I think that “love our neighbor as you love yourself” is really important and I know that in my upbringing the idea of loving yourself was always chopped off as being prideful. So to feel myself as a blessing helps me to love myself not in a prideful, exclusive way but in a way that reflects the giftedness of life and makes it more possible for me to be able to see the blessing in someone else, because it’s not unique to me although I’m a unique expression of it. So my belief would be, if you can help people experience self-love and also love another—not just say it, but really experience it about themselves and other people—you’ve gone a long way toward opening the flow of generosity of spirit.

Nepo: Are there any other stories or books you would give to a young person to “get them going” around generosity?
Gibbs: There are two books that just popped up for me immediately and they are both fairytales by Oscar Wilde. One is The Selfish Giant and the other is The Happy Prince. I don’t know if you know either of them.
Nepo:

I don’t know either of them. Can you tell me about them?

Gibbs:

Sure. The Selfish Giant is a story of a giant who had this big palace that he lives in all alone and these wonderful gardens. The children like to sneak through a hole in the fence and play in the giant’s garden. The giant is largely unaware of this until one day he notices all the children playing in his garden. He gets furious, races out and scares all the kids away, and then builds a huge wall around his garden with a “No Trespassing” sign. So the kids have to play in the dirty street and the giant’s basically imprisoned by the big wall he’s built.

Winter comes and winter goes, and spring comes everywhere but to the giant’s garden. It’s still winter in the giant’s garden, always winter. The north wind is pulling down the slates from the roof and everywhere is snow and icicles and the giant doesn’t know what’s going on.

Then one morning he is awakened by this very peculiar sound. He realizes it’s the birds singing. He looks out the window and sees that spring has come to his garden. Then he realizes the reason it’s come is that somehow the children have crept in and are playing in his garden. Then he realizes what a fool he’s been because by keeping the children out, he has kept the spring and new life out.
 
As he looks more closely, he sees children playing everywhere, and everywhere trees blossoming. But in one corner of the garden, it’s still winter. The giant sees a little boy who’s crying bitterly at the bottom of the tree, trying to get up and he can’t. So the giant suddenly realizes what he’s done. He sneaks out into the garden, but all the other children run away because they see the horrible giant coming. But the little boy is crying so much he doesn’t notice. The giant picks him up and puts him in the tree, and suddenly spring breaks out in that corner of the garden.

The giant tears down his wall and welcomes the children back. As he grows older, he looks out and says, “There are beautiful flowers in my garden, but the most beautiful flowers are the children.” But that little boy he helped up in the tree he never sees again. He keeps asking the kids, “What happened?” But they don’t know.

He gets older, and finally one day, he goes out into his garden and sees that little boy. The little boy has wounds on his hands and feet and in his side. The giant goes up to him and says, “Who has dared to wound you. Tell me that I might take my ax and slay him.” The little boy says, “No, these are the gifts, the wounds of love.”  The giant is filled with awe. The little boy says, “Today, you will be with me in paradise.”

When the children come home from school and go into the garden, they find the giant lying dead in the garden all covered with white blossoms.

Nepo: Wow, that’s a mighty big story.
Gibbs:

It’s a beautiful story.

In The Happy Prince, there’s a prince, in a small village, who dies. Everyone admires him, so they create a beautiful gilded statue to the Happy Prince with jewels in the sword belt and jewels for eyes. The town council and the mayor and all those folks would walk around the statue and point up and say, “Oh, how distinguished our town is because we have this beautiful statue of the Happy Prince.”

Then there’s a swallow that has fallen in love with a reed down by the river, but the reed’s very fickle. She goes wherever the wind blows. But the swallow is so in love that he stays with the reed long after all the other swallows leave to go to Egypt for the winter. He stays and stays, trying to get a relationship going with the reed.

Finally he realizes she’s never going to be in love with him so he decides to go to Egypt. He takes off and decides to rest the first night under the legs of the statute of the Happy Prince. And as he’s sleeping there, he suddenly feels drops of water. “This is strange,” he thinks. “There’s not a cloud in the sky. Why is it raining?”

The swallow it looks up and realizes it’s not rain, but tears from the Happy Prince. So he flies up to the prince’s face and asks, “What’s wrong?”

The Happy Prince replies, “Swallow, swallow, little swallow, there’s so much human misery. Right now I’m looking out and seeing a little boy lying sick in his bed and his mother is weeping over him because she has no money to buy medicine for him. Swallow, swallow, little swallow, will you take one of the jewels out of eyes and give it to her so she might buy some medicine?”

So the swallow takes the jewel, gives it to the mother and cools the little boy with the flapping of his wings. When he finally flies back to report to the prince, it’s too late to set out for Egypt, so the swallow decides to spend another night with the prince.

The next day, the Happy Prince says, ”Swallow, swallow, little swallow, over there I see more misery. Would you take one of the jewels from my sword?” The swallow does.

Day after day this scene repeats itself. Jewel after jewel is taken away, until all that is left is one eye. Then all the gold is taken away. Then even the last eye is taken away to help relieve human misery.

Finally, the Happy Prince says, “Now, little swallow, you must leave and go join your friends in Egypt.” The swallow says, “No, Prince, though it is very cold, now that you can no longer see, I will stay here with you.”

That night the swallow dies. The town council, the mayor and all those folks are walking by the next day and they look up and say, “Our Happy Prince looks so shabby. Whatever happened to his splendor? We should take him down and build a new statue.”

So they take the Happy Prince down and melt him down and discover that everything has melted but his broken heart, which they throw into the dustbin with the dead bird they had found at the prince’s feet.

Up in heaven God says to an angel, “Go down to the Earth and bring me back the most precious possessions there.” The angel comes back with the broken heart and the dead bird.

Nepo: That’s beautiful.
Gibbs:

They are both wonderful stories that speak to the generosity of spirit. There are probably lots of others but those certainly are two that came to me.

Also, there’s one of Jesus’ teachings that has to do with this in a wonderfully challenging way. You may be familiar with it. It’s a parable told about laborers in the vineyard. The steward came out early in the morning to the marketplace to get workers to go labor in the vineyard and he says “I will pay you a certain amount for a day’s work.” They agree and go to work.

A couple of hours later, the steward goes back to the marketplace and hires some more laborers, saying only that he will pay them what is fair at the end of the day. A couple of hours later he hires even more workers, and so on until two hours before the end of the day, he hires even more people and they all work.

When the day is over, the workers line up to be paid. The folks who arrived last are paid first. The steward gives them the full day’s wages, even though they were only there for two hours. To the workers who were there for four hours, he gives a full day’s wages and so on.

Finally, the workers who’ve labored all day long are ready to be paid. They think that if the steward gave the workers who were there only two hours a full day’s wages, he will give them quite a bit more. But he gives them a full day’s wages.

They’re incensed and say, “Wait a minute. We worked all day long. We were there through the heat of the day and you’re paying us the same amount you paid these people who were only here for two hours?”

He replies, “We agreed that you would get a certain amount for working all day and you were happy to receive that. You’ve been paid as we agreed. Do you begrudge me my generosity because I paid these who were only here for two hours the same as I paid you?”

Nepo: That’s interesting.
Gibbs: I’ve heard URI’s founder, Bishop Swing, chew on this parable for years and use it as a metaphor for how Christians do or don’t treat people of other faiths. Do we begrudge God’s generosity to people of other faiths? We’re delighted to receive what we perceive to be God’s generosity to us, but are we willing to accept that God might be as generous to Hindus and Buddhists, Muslims, and on and on.
Nepo: Well, thank you for those stories; it was really interesting. You know, for me, one story that has to do with generosity or what blocks generosity, is a story of Buddha and Angulimala, who was a murderer.  I’ll just tell it briefly. Angulimala, was a murderer who was caught and was being readied to be hung. Very graphically, the story says “By a rope made from the finger bones of his victims.” And Buddha happened to be in the town, and a meeting was arranged between Buddha and Angulimala. I’ve heard it or read that they were face-to-face and in silence just looked at each for a long time, until finally Buddha said, “I have stopped; you have not stopped.” And that was the extent of their conversation and Buddha left. It is said that upon Angulimala understanding that statement—between that moment and his death—were the only true moments of being alive that he had. And it’s kind of a riddle. I know that we could talk about what was stopped but what was not stopped. I thought about that a lot in terms of having both the Buddha nature and the murderer inside me or inside each of us. Each time what we don’t stop in terms of the fear that you talked about earlier or the kind of limitations or the walls, thinking of the selfish giant, they go to excess, they become life draining. They kill energy, they kill life, and they stop the flow of life, therefore, they stop the flow of the blessedness. It’s almost a barometer every once in a while—to have a conversation in ourselves that says, “What have I not stopped? What have I not stopped?”
Gibbs: I have to entertain that there may be things that I should stop as a good step toward being whole of myself and being in a position not to demonize other people.
Nepo: This has just been great. Is there anything else?
Gibbs: This story just popped up for me, and it happened just before I left. We received an envelope from Nigeria with two $1 bills in it and a letter from someone who wrote, “I would like to give more but my house is just recently burned down and with it I’ve lost almost all my possessions. This work is so important that I want to make some kind of contribution and this is what I can contribute.” Every time I think about that, I think, “What incredible generosity that is. Here’s someone who in his deep loss is still giving what was no doubt a lot of money for him.” This says volumes to me about how we’re supposed to live with generosity of spirit.
Nepo: That’s a beautiful story. Well, Charles, thank you. It’s been a great conversation.